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| Aranea Cullen |
 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: ID Verification in SL. Big brother over protective? |
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/08/29/identity-verification-comes-to-second-life/
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/05/04/age-and-indentity-verification-in-second-life/
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/05/07/more-on-identity-verification/
http://blog.secondlife.com/2007/05/10/further-clarification-regarding-age-verification/
I do not know how many people are aware of this occuring in SL but I've been watching the topic of Age and Identity Verification for SL, for awhile. I'm curious what other people think about this.
My opinion: firstly Yay something is being done about something people have complained of... but secondly dear God Lindens back up and take a look at your systems already in place and there are SO many other things to be dealing with right now than to be walking on a legal minefield you are walking on.
When an account on the Main SL is created there is a little thing that EVERYONE has to sign stating that they are an adult, I realize yes that people can and do lie, but, there is also another few little lines that essentually state SL is not responsible and some sort of legal action can be taken if the person does provide falsified information upon making their account. Its a handy little thing called a DISCLAIMER!
Essentually put, Linden Labs can put up their hands, point to the little thing we are all suppose to read before signing up and not be held liable for any minor that lies and jumps into the adult SL. Do the Lindens realize they already have their tushy covered?... no. Instead to me, this "Voluntary" id verification will take away my access to some things on sl, infringe upon my rights (because in Canada it is illegal to give out the information they are asking for, passport info, SIN -social insurance number) and! *blink* is being a tad sexist! insinuating that gender will need to be verified as well and that its causing problems. *blink* How am I suppose to verify my gender? Send them a picture?
Linden lab's is already covered legally, the steps they're taking to create this verification is unnecessary and the time can be spent better on other aspects of SL. These Big Brother steps are in my mind infringing upon my rights as an adult, violating my country's privacy laws and attempting to
"Parent" my conduct on SL.
I have seen three Lindens a few weeks ago or so bouncing around Midian. I have heard of other RP sims having to close down due to "violent,graphic content" and the like due to this LL big brother parenting of Adult users and enforcing of their version of an ethical/moral compass. My question is, will midian be changing to "adult" status and I will have to violate my country's privacy laws in order to continue Roleplaying in Midian?
More links on the issue:
USA Library of Congress: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c110:1:./temp/~mdbsVqv0yi:: (( the link often expires you'll have to look, but there's a USA law regarding personal information that this ID verification is in violation of. )) http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/thomas
CAN Privacy Commissioner’s site: http://www.privcom.gc.ca/fs-fi/02_05_d_02_e.asp
Final word: my rights and freedoms of choice and self governance over my moral/ethical standards as an Adult should not be restricted or suppressed by an Adult system due to a minor or two breaking the contract laws confirming them as an adult when they made their account on the Adult system. Kick the minor out, slap the parents on the wrists with lawsuits if necessary and put them back on the teen grid where they belong. LL's ass is covered, they just need to lay off and enforce that prior ass covery called a disclaimer and the contract signed/read by all who create an adult account. |
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| Marie Lawson |
| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Mar 2007
Posts: 193
Location: ON, Canada
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all I have is a 'Government of Ontario Health Card' for ID...so now, I have to spend $90 on a passport because of this...
and that takes a while to get here......... |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 761
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"I want to reiterate that identity verification is voluntary for both Residents and estate owners. Residents who value their anonymity may continue to remain anonymous and will continue to have access to all Mature and PG areas of the Grid. Land owners are strongly encouraged to flag adult content as Restricted to safeguard themselves from publishing inappropriate content to minors, as well as protecting any minors themselves."
It seems that it's volentury. Midian can issue its own disclaimer to cover its ass rather than force people to use IDV
A disclaimer such as "You agree that you can legally view the adult content that is displayed in midian by the laws of your country, and you are at least 18 years of age."
Covered. Some lying little sack of shit underage player comes in then the parents try to sue, well it's covered.
IDV don't prove a thing, you can borrow an id an address, a telephone number, a bank statement just as easily as you can borrow mom and dads credit card.
How do they think IDV is any different? It's not like the person gets a knock at their door and asked "is this you"..
the way I see it lindens disclaimers and midians own disclaimers should be proof against sueing
IDV won't prevent some kid committing fruad three times.. I mean heck if they have done it once ((by going onto the adult grid)) or twice ((by using someones credit card)) what makes people think they won't do it a third time ((by borrowing mom or dad's id?))
_________________
The above statements are opinions of the person behind the name "Charles Noble" these opinions may change over time, they may not agree with your opinon, that is the nature of opinions. Endevour to debate the "issue" not the "Person" |
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| Golyth Carillon |
| Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 269
Location: Hapeville GA
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I think the big problem is with all the Age Play and what not that goes on in SL Linden Labs got caught with its pants down and is now trying to make up for it. I know several owners of SIMS who will not be enforcing the IDV but instead like Charles said be issuing a "Warning" of sorts for the content within the SIM itself.
I mean after all this will bite LL in the ass since they can't actually enforce it themselves without loosing tons of customers.
_________________
"I do not need nor want your approval on how I should play my character. You don't have to RP with me and I don't have to RP with you. You didn't ask me permission to assume the seat of leader nor dictate how I should play my character." |
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| ginseng_kyong |
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 28
Location: catwalks
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I have been wondering what is going to happen with the age verification and Midian... I personally have no trust in LL being able to pull this off without exposing personal information. When you think about it, all the time there are companies (banks, government, etc) sending apology letters to there customers saying sorry for exposing their customers info to the world. Sure durring the transaction of info it may have been safe, but there is always a weak link some where.
When I originally read the latest blog statement on this issue, I was a bit disturbed by the contradictions, not to mention how they turn off the abiltiy to reply to the blog or do not respond to the first 100 posts that all have good questions.
Like look at this statement:
"Linden Lab will not be storing this data and nor will the third party verification specialist, Aristotle. Residents may choose which personal details such as name, age, location, sex, they wish to share about themselves publicly.
Ok.. so how is that different than from now? If I want I can share all this info with people if I want. Does this mean on my profile I can have a checkmark to expose this info in SL? If it is a checkmark, that would mean that LL would have to store that information some how.
later on they address the storing of info again:
"What personal information will you store? Linden Lab will not store any specific, identifying information. "
And then later on once more:
"Will my personal information ever be shared with anyone else? Linden Lab does not share Resident data for marketing or other purposes, but does of course comply with requests from all governmental and regulatory authorities and with court orders including subpoenas."
So how does this work again? How is it they can give your information to the govenment when then are not storing it? or will the govenment get a copy of your info when you first do your age verification? |
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| Oceania Goodliffe |
| Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 727
Location: The Twilight Zone
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Any information stored on any computer even your own personal one could be hacked at anytime ...
To Linden Labs credit when they were hacked last year they immediately let everyone know ... they did not try to hide it and cover it up ... my credit card was in the server that was hacked ... my credit card company had a new one to me very quickly because LL had notified them ...
We all take a risk with information everyday just by using the computer ... is there a computer out there that can never be hacked ... i seriously doubt it ... it is what is done if/when it happens that does matter and LL did a good job in my opinion
_________________
B.I.T.C.H. (Babe In Total Control of Herself)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oceaniagoodliffe/
Sometimes you don't need good to fight evil, you need a different kind of evil. |
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| Aranea Cullen |
| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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| Jon Gontineac |
| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Posts: 16
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I read through this a little earlier-the phrasing seems ambiguous:
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What happens if I don’t flag my restricted content?
We strongly encourage estate owners and parcel owners to flag any restricted content and restrict their parcels to avoid minors inadvertently accessing it. If you are an estate owner, make sure that your parcel owners are flagging restricted content properly.
If Residents and businesses choose not to do this, land containing adult content that is not clearly marked will be easily identifiable by the community. Resident can raise concerns directly with the landowner or with Linden Lab via the Abuse channel. |
I had previously assumed that if an area was rated "Mature" rather than "PG" it was adult in terms of its content already. I guess the best case scenario is that nothing needs to change-the description of Midian makes it clear that it is an adult Sim, the worst case scenario would be people spamming abuse reports because an area is not restricted but has adult content.
With the rich and diverse community that exists within Secondlife there will always be someone who is offended about something. |
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| Rin Tae |
| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 149
Location: away from Midian but still alive (and eating cake)
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But if this is free and we are left the choice to verify or not... why would those that chose not to do it be in danger of beeing reported by some ´concerned citizens´?
And in a comunity where there is always somone who is offended by some other thing .... I think we can easily imagine how this could end.....
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well ... that should work |
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| Aranea Cullen |
| Posted: Wed Sep 19, 2007 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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| Simply put. LL is putting itself into an unnecessary legal/political minefield I doubt it will be able to survive. |
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| ginseng_kyong |
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 28
Location: catwalks
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| Rin Tae wrote: |
But if this is free and we are left the choice to verify or not... why would those that chose not to do it be in danger of beeing reported by some ´concerned citizens´?
And in a comunity where there is always somone who is offended by some other thing .... I think we can easily imagine how this could end..... |
I think what LL is doing is trying to take the resposiblity away from themselves and put it onto the owners of the sims. Like if some crazy parent of an under aged teen wants to sue LL, the can't because LL passed the buck, they have to sue the sim owner instead. |
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| Deets Carroll |
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 269
Location: According to this map, I'm over there somewhere.
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| ginseng_kyong wrote: |
I think what LL is doing is trying to take the resposiblity away from themselves and put it onto the owners of the sims. Like if some crazy parent of an under aged teen wants to sue LL, the can't because LL passed the buck, they have to sue the sim owner instead. |
If I understand what's happened with other companies in the past, by acknowledging ANY ability to moderate or regulate the content in SL, they have accepted the legal obligation to do so. You can't police content just a little bit, you're either not doing it at all, or you have to do it all-out. Of course, they want to lay some responsibility at the feet of the service provider, too.
Why do age verification at all? It's an admission that there ARE children in SL. The only way to claim you're trying to keep the kids out, is to make age verification mandatory for ALL avies. So, age verification is optional, and that means there will still be kids among us.
Assuming for the moment that 'Resticted' properties are completely safe from those nasty kids (they're not), what's protecting the kids from 'Mature' content? I'd expect a lot of pressure to move 'Mature' content into either 'Restricted' or 'PG'. According to US sensibilities, should kids see naked avatars? See SL artists' representations of nudes? View representations of classical art, such as David and Venus de Milo? Listen to explicit lyrics at a dance club? At a live performance? Should they be able to visit Gorean-themed sims? Wear submissive collars? Dress like a child? Visit Xcite? Watch virtual sex? Have virtual sex? With an avatar the same sex as their own? the same sex as their RL self? With a furry? Even if they're a furry themselvs? Shoot someone? Have their head explode? Use a guillotine? Wear lingerie in public? Build a model of their high school and practice sniping from the roof?
What can you do in a Mature sim, that you would NOT need to protect children from?
I propose that the SL client have an option that would warn you anytime you moved from a PG sim into a Mature sim. Maybe even prevented you from crossing or TP'ing into a Mature sim. Most of us would turn it off and forget about it. But anytime somebody complained about seeing stuff they didn't think they should see, the Lindens could point to that option and say, "we gave you a choice."
But the kids would leave it off, of course. |
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 381
Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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I like the "warning" feature idea pretty well from Deet's post, and I share the concerns that LL has taken Second Life into a political boondoggle.
Being an international meeting place, Sl has to worry about multiple sensibilities and legalities - ala the "German reporter/Child Porn" incident.
Ultimately, I believe the liability falls upon the parents to try and control the actions of their minor children (I have two) - but thats not a palatable idea to many....especially if they see $$ signs over a potential lawsuit recovery.
I'd like to see Sl continue in the most unrestricted format possible, but I'm kinda stuck on how that could be done in a secure manner.
Big Brother scares me.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
BlackStar Military Services
Commander: Midian City Operations
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/
Blog: http://debcharron.livejournal.com/ |
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| Aranea Cullen |
| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:11 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 66
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| Atmlady Alcott |
| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 694
Location: Not in Pleasentville. It's just not nice there anymore.
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This is an issue that I'm sure many will have varied opinions on, so I can only issue mine.
Being "older" (YES, I AM 50) it really doesn't bother me at all, as frankly I am use to the miriad of public information that is out there about all of us. Anyone can verify ME in about 15 seconds.
Before we get up in arms about this, perhaps we should look at the root cause of it and maybe we can get a better grasp on why this happens.
The truth is, under the guise of "FREEDOM" we have spawned a class of people that have manipulated, abused and done all they can to cheat the "system" because of their lack of responsibility.
Personally, I don't like paying higher insurance rates because many drive recklessly BUT if I choose to drive, I have to. Many don't like paying higher interst rates, but as long as people continue to fail to take the responsibility of their finances, everyone else pays more.
As long as people who are underage come into SL and abuse it, WE will have to suffer for their lack of concern for others, if we choose to stay here.
Is it right that are seeking age verification? Guess it depends on who you ask but one thing for sure is it. IT"S NOT SL who is wrong here. They are a BUSINESS and have the right to protect their investment, much like the right I as a citizen have to keep a fireman in my home to protect myself, my loved ones and my possessions. It's those who are attempting to ABUSE THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING HERE that are in fault.. If we are angry about age verification our outbursts of anger should be directed toward them, but sadly living in the "PC" culture we do today, it is far easier to blame the system then to blame the abuser. |
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