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| Debra Charron |
 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 416
Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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Okies, I'll chime in here as we're talking about how competition best serves the customer..in this case - people in Midian looking to Roleplay.
By its very essence - competition is need-driven. Someone percieves a need or a desire for a product, service, "thing"...and they create it and drop it into that great Darwinian arena known as the Free Market.
Most times - the project fails. In RL, look at how many new eating establishments are here for 3 months and then vanish. Look at how many new Televesion serials last maybe half a season and then go poof due to lack of interest (and dammit, I'm gonna miss Jericho).
But every now and again, the stars align, someone (a) correctly identifies a desire for a particular sevrice and (b) correctly executes its creation (c) markets it well enough to create "draw" and (d) sustains the momentum well enough to stand the test of time.
That gives us Coca-Cola, the iPod, convenient sanitary napkins, Google and Bart Simpson.
Competiton is good because some stellar things have been bilt on the foundation of all those that went before...and failed.
A lot of sand-pebbles had to be sifted to come up with the real "diamonds". Occasionally, the spinoffs have greater longevity than the originals ala the massive success of Star-Trek: The Next Generation as opposed to the Original Series. A lot of variables go into play in the success of whether an idea succeeds or fails..the greatest being the leadership that is displayed in guiding the new enterprise along its course.
How does this relate to New Factions? Easy. Things change, there is a definite cycle to the rise and decline of any organisation and Entropy (the tendency of thing to fly apart) is always at work. Sometimes, a particular group has the sense of identity, unity and the benefit of visionary leadership - and THAT is the real preventive against the group splintering and spawning offshoots.
If you don't like groups failing and offshoots forming, there may be some systemic things we can do to prevent that.
Twice a year, I teach a fresh-faced new group of leaders within my organization that leadership has three phases. The first is to Define Reality (this is who we are, what we are about and our Mission). The last is to say "Thank you" and reward people for a job well done. The never-ending Middle Phase involves being both Coach and Servant..knowing when to intervene to uphold the group ethos, mediate disputes and keep things on track, and knowing when to get out of the way and let your motivated people accomplish more as a group than the formal leader ever could as an individual.
Coaching for a faction-Leader might well involve talking privately to a faction-member who is Modding or stepping outside the established Theme of the sim and laying it out to them that their behaviour is damaging the group's rep out on the street or worse...hurting RP within the sim by creating an "Arms Race". It might also be by helping people who are "not a good fit" for that group or even for Midian to make that decision...or making it for them as required after consulting the other faction-members and the Sim leadership.
It sucks when you have to 'weed your garden"...but it sucks more long-term when you fail to do so.
Thats how you maintain what we used to call "unit integrity" when I was in uniform. Today in industry...we just call it maintaining Morale.
Now..I'm not tossing rocks at the existing Faction Leaders, obviously, we have many groups that have stood the test of time - maybe even waned a bit and then come back stronger than before. What i am doing is trying to point out the common thread that runs thru successful Factions, just as it runs thru successful businesses...is quality of leadership and active involvement in keeping the enterprise on-course.
So..we can play "whack-a-mole" with new groups (which may well be the right thing to do is the proposed group is counterproductive) - or we can choose to deal with "why" the new groups keep popping up...and be accepting of the fact that people's creativity and desire to innovate are always going to challenge the status-quo-ante.
When I finished my military career and took my first civilian management job, I worked for a crusty old Process Engineer who had a sign posted outside his office-door that said "Things are the way they are, because we let them get that way". He was real big on dealing with Cause and not worrying over Symptoms, also big on active leadership as the "antibody" against Entropy - and if I've enjoyed any success in what I do currently, its mainly because he made a convert of me.
So..I think Competition serves a purpose, but I also think we can minimise NEGATIVE competition by dealing well with the reasons why groups fragment.
Having said that - I think we need to do whats right for Jade's sim....and the ultimate decider on that topic....is Jade.
I think we've seen some interesting and valid opinions voiced here. i believe that Midian will be the better for whatever develops from this (sometimes heated) debate.
*hugz* to all who have cared enough to speak up, no matter what your opinion.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
BlackStar Military Services
Commander: Midian City Operations
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/
Blog: http://debcharron.livejournal.com/ |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1122
Location: incognito or Bangkok Records
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Everyone keeps offering real life examples without taking note of the fact that these real life actions that you describe will one day lead to a real apocalypse/death *points again to the dinosaurs*. Do you really want that for Midian? You have witnessed escalations like this in the technology/weaponry in Midian becoming so you can't walk down the street w/o meeting someone in full body armor who can full heal in minutes what in real life would kill someone 10 times over. But no one wants to learn from their mistakes. If the majority want to escalate faction creation in that same manner...I won't stand in the way anymore.
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| Basically, what you suggest, both in the real world and in Midian, would lead and does lead to annihilation and we don't REALLY want Midian annihilated, we want to preserve it in a tumultuous roleplay stasis. |
Hugs appreciated Deb, but all any of us have done here is try to work out solutions to Midian's problems. I really do think allowing rampant formation of recruiting groups/factions un-approved by Jade/Camilla will lead to the ongoing degradation of quality long term role play in Midian. Also I have been civil about stating my views, as well....evident by my intial outline/suggestion being changed and molded to what other people think/want, I think I have proven myself open to what other people think.
But if, by debating my view and trying to work out a solution everyone can live with I am going to get called names for things I state civily on a forum made for these discussions, I'm done here. I'm not in this to hurt people or be hurt in real life over a simple point of view. I would like it noted however, that I never once degraded into calling people names, the discussion was kept at civil levels on my part at all times, even if I do debate passionately over things I believe in.
To me, if rampant formation of groups that are not offering new and inventive things to Midian, just mirroring off some official faction keeps up, we will see Midian continue to slowly die out, either that, or the quality of role play will become less and less both due to the nature of smaller groups/factions and due to losing good role players to sims that do limit such things and thus promote decent long term RP. I have given reasons and backed them up with proof and examples as well. I hope you guys work out a good proposal for Jade that takes everyone into consideration and not just yourselves, good luck with it.
One last update of the proposal making allowances for what Rin, Deets, Gol and some others suggested:
| Quote: |
Make it a requirement that in order to start a faction and be allowed to actively recruit:
1. your group must have been in successful RP operation in Midian for at least 3 months with a 1 month probation period following at the discretion of Jade/Camilla so that the group and it's leaders may be verified/observed more closely and/or asked about in RP circles before making a decision if the group, as an official faction, would be warranted or beneficiary
2. you have to have a certain amount of active members and at least three of them have to have been in Midian RPing for more than 4 months
3. you must submit the idea in writing, fully drawn out to Jade or Cam for their approval, who will evaluate its benefit to Midian RP on a variety of factors, including but not limited to originality or uniqueness
4. should the leadership become inactive/abandoned for longer than a month, they are subject to faction removal and or replacement of leadership
5. only official factions are given HQ's, a reward for jumping through all these hurdles and proving themselves in RP |
For those that are for all groups at any time being able to form, you could look at this as a road to official status rather than any deterrant to your group.
_________________
(Pera Sutekh, twin sis of Chigaru) BIO!>Pera
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Last edited by Aegyptia Elvehjem on Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:36 am; edited 7 times in total |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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I don't exactly see the relevance of that here Debra. We are talking about competiton being brought in to a niche that is already filled, that need is sated, but the newomers seeks to gain popularity by fulfilling it in a more attarctive way, atleast in the short term. thats whats damaging, the escalation of competiton between two parties OOC which makes it very cutthroat, which isnt what roleplay is about, it is about making a cool storyand having fun.
If we compete OOC it fosters the wrong mentality in the sim, and leads to a degradations of roleplay as factions ahve to fight to even stay active in the face of less scupulous competition.
What has been said all along, is if, like in your examples, you perceive a popular need that is not being filled, and more importantly can't be filled by existing factions with just a little work. Then you might have grounds to come up with an imagintaive new concept, and fit that into the city while maintianing the same responsibility as an offical faction. If its just a case of seeing a concept and wanting to do it again, but this time with a different person in charge, thats where the negative aspects of competiton come in, and thats what I see happening.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 791
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sides whats to stop Everyone saying
hell I'll make my own faction too because oocly i'm more popular than say someone who has just come up with one.
Example debs
someone see's the valkryie idea
is more popular than deets and deb
decides, hell I can sink their faction via means of an ooc popularity contest.
see
there needs to be ground rules. |
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 416
Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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I suppose we could try top-down compliance / non-competitive as a culture....but when the Soviets experimented with that..it lasted considerably less time than the dinosaurs.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
BlackStar Military Services
Commander: Midian City Operations
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/
Blog: http://debcharron.livejournal.com/ |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Think I'm pretty much at my wits end debating this topic, the same 'realistic competition is good' arguement is given continouslym=, and the myriad of arguements against that and the flaws of such thinking that are displayed by people aren't answered.
For about four pages the same aregument has been repeated in so many different ways, and the unsavoury comments and terms thrown mine and Aegy's way aren't at all warranted.
This OOC unfriendliness and lack or respect is probabally why you consider OOC competiton a good idea, as you would have no qualms stealing people's ideas, leeching off their work and crushing their honest attempts to succeed properly. We're a storytellung community guys, it's not law of the jungle, hostile takeovers aren't allowed, and there shouldn't be spin, lies and politics...
Some people seem to be ignoring the arguements put forth and going straight for the people behind them, and it needs to stop.
Read what peopel say, digest it, see if they have persuaded you - if not - point out why, and throughout it all have some respect.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
Posts: 791
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| Debra Charron wrote: |
| I suppose we could try top-down compliance / non-competitive as a culture....but when the Soviets experimented with that..it lasted considerably less time than the dinosaurs. |
off topic, but yeah just a reality check. In terms of "time" the dinosaurs have set the record for "durability" humans don't come in close, not even by a long shot. If the dinosaurs lasted a day, humans have lasted one second so far. |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1122
Location: incognito or Bangkok Records
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| Charles Noble wrote: |
| Debra Charron wrote: |
| I suppose we could try top-down compliance / non-competitive as a culture....but when the Soviets experimented with that..it lasted considerably less time than the dinosaurs. |
off topic, but yeah just a reality check. In terms of "time" the dinosaurs have set the record for "durability" humans don't come in close, not even by a long shot. If the dinosaurs lasted a day, humans have lasted one second so far. |
*stops pointing to the dinosaurs and points to any human culture in humanity instead who progressively feeds upon themselves to extinction or any animal who has become extinct due to free for all behavior through eating/living habits or human encroachment of territory*
If there are 5 apples and one apple tree, you can not eat 10 apples, chop the tree down, build a house and then expect apples again next season. Is that easier to understand? We have to find a way to share those 5 apples and preserve the tree for next season for the good of all, maybe even plant a few seeds.
_________________
(Pera Sutekh, twin sis of Chigaru) BIO!>Pera
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 416
Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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| J8 Skall wrote: |
I don't exactly see the relevance of that here Debra. We are talking about competiton being brought in to a niche that is already filled, that need is sated, but the newomers seeks to gain popularity by fulfilling it in a more attarctive way, atleast in the short term. thats whats damaging, the escalation of competiton between two parties OOC which makes it very cutthroat, which isnt what roleplay is about, it is about making a cool storyand having fun.
If we compete OOC it fosters the wrong mentality in the sim, and leads to a degradations of roleplay as factions ahve to fight to even stay active in the face of less scupulous competition.
What has been said all along, is if, like in your examples, you perceive a popular need that is not being filled, and more importantly can't be filled by existing factions with just a little work. Then you might have grounds to come up with an imagintaive new concept, and fit that into the city while maintianing the same responsibility as an offical faction. If its just a case of seeing a concept and wanting to do it again, but this time with a different person in charge, thats where the negative aspects of competiton come in, and thats what I see happening. |
You seem to be implying that "just a little work" wasn't tried.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
BlackStar Military Services
Commander: Midian City Operations
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/
Blog: http://debcharron.livejournal.com/ |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Debra, this is a general thread, I wasn't talking about the Valkyries, I was infact alluding to, as I have mentioned in previous posts, the large number of groups that very much infringe on the mandate of the Mercenary Guild, without having made any attempt to look at options within the established factions. The mercs, afterall, are a faction I know very well and am most qualified to speak on.
I wasn't intending anyone to take it personally, but since there seems to be an insistance on it, I may as well pull the Valkyries into the bracket too, I don't think they look dissimilar enough to the Sarcina to really be consideres unique, and I don't think there are enough suitable players in the city to support the running of two factions, and the Sarcina, as an official and original faction, should get precedence, whether you and Deets fit in personally or not is immaterial.
So the phrase wasn't directed at that idea, but if I'm honest includes it, that's my opinion, and incase anyone's preparing a ratehr personal shitstorm for me, which seems the norm now, they can go to hell, 'cause I dont care.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 416
Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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I'm not preparing anything of the sort Jay. You've voiced your opinion to me in IM as well as here, and I feel at perfect liberty to disagree with you w/o the need to roll in the mud over it.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
BlackStar Military Services
Commander: Midian City Operations
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/
Blog: http://debcharron.livejournal.com/ |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:39 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Said 'anyone' not 'you', refering to the fact alot of people seem to be keen to label others on here, whether they are 'involved' or not, I never suggested you were at fault with anything.
You IMed me about the Valkries, and you've discussed merc things with me, there is no intent to 'roll in the mud', I respect that approach and your thoughts alot more for it.
Really though the confusion and eagerness for people to take criticism to heart is just too much in this thread, and as much as it needed to be said, I almost regret being the one to say it.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Shilandar Deledda |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 1:55 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Wherever the trail leads
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To be perfectly honest I think Debra has a point, nor is it a 'bad' point. Just about every person here has so far put something forwards that in pieces, at the least, if not in entirety would likely be beneficial in some way. Certainly not 'trolling' or trying to crush anyone, but perhaps I just enjoy a healthy, heated debate. Personally in my opinion if your idea can't stand up against an intellectual, well formulated counter-opinion or 'attack' if you prefer, it wasn't that good to begin with. ;P
Deb's point on how these spawn to fill a vacuum is a valid one. However, I think that... also as she put, it is Jade's sim... what these factions should do is put these ideas forward to one of the admins, Jade/Camilla/whatnot, an' those individuals should decide whether it fills one of those niches if it's going to go beyond being a 'group' to being a 'faction'.
Now I admit this may be a slap on the head of groups that want to grow, at least at first, but again Aegy's point comes in which is that we want others who get the idea to make groups... not pointing the finger at ANYBODY... to look long and hard at what's available and make sure that what they're offering really -is- something new, and not just something that can be found in a place they're not looking.
That to me is the primary point here, not to stifle, but to... weed out as it were. One can argue that we can weed them out easily enough by letting them falter all on their own with time, but personally I think a control system of some sort to keep the admin structure aware of all the unofficials/whatnot running amok in the sim is a beneficial one.
This way you can keep the better ones around and allow them their time to grow and prosper, while the lower dredges don't end up grabbing up swarms of newcomers to the sim which then get bored and disappear by being associated with groups that wouldn't stand the test of time anyway. ;P
Hope that made some kind of sense and I didn't just babble it out for no reason whatsoever. Feel free to let me know otherwise.
_________________
"In this world everyone is either played, or playing with someone else. Be it their body, mind, heart, or soul. Live your life the way that makes you happy, because you never know when it will be snuffed out."
- Chi Sutekh, twin brother of Pera Sutekh
Last edited by Shilandar Deledda on Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total |
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| Jade Steele |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 16 Feb 2007
Posts: 90
Location: Midian City - Is there really anywhere else?
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| Masha Eilde wrote: |
First. Thanks to Charles and others (just saw Roxy's proposal!) for trying to write up something that's a solution. I don't agree with all of it, but that's not the point. Thank you for being proactive!
Now.
Masha's tangential rant.
Calling something a "debate" does NOT give carte blanche to be derisive, rude, or discourteous. Further, using subjective and judgmental language in the guise of "stating an opinion" is about the best way to make sure that no one listens or takes what is being proposed seriously.
Do we want to debate and argue or do we care enough about Midian as a whole to have a discussion?
Personally, I prefer a *discussion*.
That means take time to edit tone and language to remove judgmental and subjective wording. That means attempting to put qualifiers in when stating an opinion (it's not hard, it can be done elegantly and honestly, it's what's done in the corporate world all the time when working through and/or managing difficult cross-specialty projects, at least by those who succeed in bringing the project home).
Be courteous. I can't stress that enough. Be courteous and people will at least listen rather than simply read what has been written and fume while planning out a retort.
We're a community. This is a contentious issue, at least among the louder and aggressive forum posters (which is not representative of the SIM population).
LISTEN to what others are saying, don't just wait for them to speak then harp on what was said earlier as if repetition will make it heard or true to all readers.
PAY ATTENTION to the root of the issue and try to work towards a solution.
If these two things aren't in place, just lock the thread because it's really just adding up to one big masturbatory, self-congratulatory rant.
NEITHER side is listening. BOTH sides are assuming AND pre-judging.
Now. Back on topic, to add one clarifying point:
I've seen the OOC notecard on the Valkyries because I was asked about it and wanted to know details. If people are thinking the original IC whisper was the descriptor of the gang, they're wrong.
Please, people. ASK before judging and condemning. Most of what we do for Midian occurs in-world, not in this forum. That means if folks have questions, send the person a POLITE PM or ask in-world for details. It's just that simple.
And happy Friday.
-M |
EXACTLY! I could not have stated this any better myself.
Thank you Masha! |
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| Shilandar Deledda |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Sep 2007
Posts: 299
Location: Wherever the trail leads
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Okay, so Jade's opinion is we were derisive, rude, or discourteous? Or that we weren't paying attention to the root of the topic, I suppose..... *shrugs and sighs* All right then, I'll leave the topic be.
_________________
"In this world everyone is either played, or playing with someone else. Be it their body, mind, heart, or soul. Live your life the way that makes you happy, because you never know when it will be snuffed out."
- Chi Sutekh, twin brother of Pera Sutekh |
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