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| Deets Carroll |
 Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 253
Location: According to this map, I'm over there somewhere.
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 774
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Some official factions are impossible to get into for some characters, indeed I can't get into any of the gang's I tried for recently for a variety of reasons, some I consider amazingly unjust.
Yet I didn't complain formally to Jade, or start my own faction, I tried again, changed my character, explored other options... the whole lot, my first port of call wasn't to start a new faction.
*edited by moderator*
The reasons official factions suffer is sometime due to their own failings, yet often it is becuase they don't offer the easy alternative unoffical one's do.
Let me put this in context, there are now 2 import groups beside Black Star, the official original controlling the docks. There are also 3 merc groups beside the Guild... None of the leaders applied to join the official factions and failed, none of them joined and found it wasn't to their liking, non of them approached the offical faction with ideas on how to improve.
That is what I am argueing is harmful.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 774
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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*edited by moderator*
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Kyril Sylbert |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 52
Location: The Society of Ancient Arts.. now find out where that is!
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I have to agree with Jay's last post. I know this won't add much to the discussion now but he put the thoughts I had behind me first post and didn't write down in there now.
The official factions are working closely to the original ideas os the sim and I know from experience that the leaders of them are in close contact to Jade and Cam whenever there is need to discuss something about their roleplay or something that has major influence on the city. They might be slower because of this progress but that way ensures that their contribution to RP as a whole has an effect that is reasonable and makes sense.
I don't assume people just create a faction to boost their ego or get a quick fix to a problem they have with their existing one's. To me it seems more like lack of communication to those who run the factions they are in or have been in before.
Evolution should also happen inside the factions we have and I am sure there would be some if there would be better communication and the patience that it takes before a solution is in place and working. We're in Midian after all and not in real life. The system of factions we have might have its problems and that makes is neccessary to discuss it. I am only stating my opinion in regards to those I read here.
edit:
you posted before me  |
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| Lucca Staheli |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 07 Dec 2007
Posts: 63
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I think new groups can be helpful to rp even if they challenge an exsisting faction as long as they rp with in the scope of what Midian is. Of course some faction can't have copycat groups MPD, Legion....Those are things you just wont have two of in a city. No one group should have a monopoly on what is rped in the city wen it coes to gangs. If this is supposed to be realistic type rp then well there would be a mutiple groups doing the same thing setting off gang wars.
Though coming an making announcements on the form seems to me as a way to make it seem like new gangs are more "official" than they really are. A new gang in town to me would keep kinda quiet and not draw lots of attention to itself for fear tha established stroner gangs would wipe them out before the start. So why not make your group and just recruit through meeting people IC. I mean you start leaving pamphlets around town about your gang then you are just drawing the attenion of rival gangs and the cops and would get shut down quickly anyway.
I would say grow your group icly and provide good rp for the other players in midian then see about getting something offcial. But to me just seems like these newer factions are trying t put the cart infront of the horse. |
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| Lancer Oldrich |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 110
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Only making a brief intercession. I don’t know Deets or Jay all that well, so I hope that neither of you take what I say take this too negatively or personally, and also that I don’t end up inadvertently making both of you more mad or frustrated. What I do hope is that neither of you let this kind of thing boil over into not interacting with each other at all (here or in sim). Mostly it is just to highlight ways I think might be helpful for anyone in terms of dealing with forum issues in general. 
The boards of course, are for stating opinions. This is a key thing to remember. They are OPINIONS, not die-hard facts. People are allowed to have those, and are also allowed to think they are right. They can also be misunderstood, and/or be wrong. I think it is very easy, by the nature of medium, to pointedly take issues as being “personal” when particular stances are taken strongly. e.g. Jay as a forum poster, typically words his opinions very strongly, this I suspect being due to his having contributed a lot to the sim and being familiar with the genre, themes, etc. the sim is imbued with. In saying this, I don’t mean this as a criticism. 
I want to point out that while I understand very well, why you (Deets) took much of what you quoted from Jay have said as a deliberate attack on your own abilities, your own character, it is clear Jay was attempting to address the issue re: the creation of a whole new faction, for any number of causes, as supposed to blaming you, specifically for contribution to the problem. Yes, in Jay’s stated opinion, he did criticize your idea based on what was a very small tidbit you posted; IMO I think if there was a more, organized way of introducing faction ideas for “public” discussion, these kinds of occurrences which result in bad feelings/attitudes arising could be avoided, or at least curbed.
I guess all I am really trying to say is…of course, we should be respectful of everyone’s right to state what they feel (obviously within reason and a certain level of etiquette); at the same time, bear in mind that by its nature, people are just expressing their opinions; they can be wrong, they can be persuaded, and they can be misunderstood. It can be hard, but I think if everyone tries, some semblance of balance between these two ranges is somewhat obtainable. 
Some questions that come to mind as far as discussing new factions. I apologize in advance if there is a “general” set of unwritten guidelines or procedure already in place:
How do/have factions become “official,” according to the history of the sim; were the core set just established, and others added on later?
Based on how the initial factions were setup and subsequent ones developed (that are now considered official and have been in existence for some period of time), how ought/should factions evolve and develop? Just from strict IC play that results in their establishment? From an initial idea, discussed by a few players, then discussed openly OOC on the forums? Obviously, the faction is the brainchild more or less of a few players, but the players of the sim should have voice as to whether or not they see it as having potential, so as to provide the maximum benefit (for story, for character development etc.) for all.
Depending on the progression/development of a faction, when is a good point to introduce it for public consumption, dissection, debate?
Directing the discussion towards these questions (as well) may be beneficial, in addition the other good points people have made already.
See you in game! |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1565
Location: Plague of Madness
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| Masha Eilde wrote: |
((
Okay, I probably shouldn't dive in to this thread but I want to speak up for the other side a bit.
I don't know Ayr, but I *do* know Debra and Deets and they are both stellar roleplayers, intelligent GM's and superlative organizers, planners with creativity up the wazoo.
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Going by the suggested requirements, Deb and Deets actually meet them all if they ran this by Jade, all but it being an orig. idea, as do you Masha. What this would be aimed at stopping is the people that come in brand new and 3 weeks later try to start their own faction rather than spend any effort at all in trying to fit into what is here.
Also, no one jumped on them, people gave opinions on what they were doing and my honest opinion was given and it was not mean spirited in the least. If these proposed leaders can not take constructive criticism, I'd say they are not faction leader material anyway, as a faction leader, believe me, you need a much thicker skin than anything I have seen them weathering so far.
I understand Deets' and Deb's predicament and the solution is a quandry...that is all I am going to say on that other than I think we also need some pruning system for official factions that are no longer working.
Maybe....we come up with a magic number and a renewal system....there would only be allowed say 10 official factions at a time and at each renewal, say every 6 months, those factions that do not meet certain requirements lose that status....other non official ones, the strongest ones, win that status.
What about something like that? Of course, it would get pretty cut throat, or would be healthy competition depending on how you look at it. ;P
_________________
(Khepera Sutekh, aka Venom, founder/leader of KAOS, twin sis of Chigaru) BIO!>Pera
 inventor of orig. Synthnip©- accept no knockoffs! |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1565
Location: Plague of Madness
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| Mordag McCallen wrote: |
| Also, this thread is abotu starting NEW faction, not starting old faction. So your example with starting new UAC is actualy quite off topic. |
Respectfully, I very much disagree Mordaq, what Jay said and his example was right on target actually. Fractured copy cat groups that feed off someone else's ideas and hard work are nothing but detrimental to the sim and do nothing but cause strife and confusion.
Jay, I see your point about not requiring people be in an actual official faction for 6 months before trying to create one, I just thought adding that would give them experience on how factions work, or don't in some cases, since creating a faction is what they wanted to do. Also would help to promote the existing faction system. It is like applying for a job in a way, you would not expect to get a job you had not put effort towards and have experience with.
_________________
(Khepera Sutekh, aka Venom, founder/leader of KAOS, twin sis of Chigaru) BIO!>Pera
inventor of orig. Synthnip©- accept no knockoffs! |
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| Ayr |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 13
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| Masha Eilde wrote: |
| Kyril Sylbert wrote: |
| the problem is that the existing factions suffer from it. Right at the moment where some factions are really low on members it is like poison to their RP if an unofficial group takes up members that might have included themselfes or the like into the existing system of factions. |
Perhaps we should examine this. Why are we having official factions with low membership, yet new unofficial groups popping up to the extent that people perceive it as happening too often? The latter indicates to me that interest in Midian has not waned, but rather, interest in the official factions has declined. OR, for some reason, people are finding barriers to getting in these official factions, or getting involved in the RP once they DO get in, or any number of possible theories.
Instead of getting angry at people for being proactive with their RP, I propose we look at what might be affecting the health of the official factions, honestly and openly, and see if we can figure out some solutions.
My three cents.
Cheers!
-M |
I agree pretty fully with that. As for people not meeting the requirements, I haven't even had anybody im me back - which you would expect someone to do - out of common courtesy and decency to say I've been denied for a faction. It doesn't take over three weeks to read an application form. That is, I think, one reason which puts people off.
The idea of new factions popping up adds realism to the sim. They're like a new business. They either flourish, struggle or die - but the fact is that they should be given equal standing to try. I don't think it's fair to say that small factions 'steal' members off the the major factions. They [Official groups] are the ones who get publicity in the midian city guide - so this is clearly not relevant to why they would lose members.
I've always found smaller groups are much more fun to rp with. Why? because you -have- to get involved. You have to help and encourage the rp, and you have to get to know other members. Huge-ass groups who are split into 'divisions' are over-all pointless because they pick quantity over quality I've found.
[Edited for consistency due to spastic fibrostis - Aka, mind scatteredness]
Last edited by Ayr on Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:28 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1565
Location: Plague of Madness
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem wrote: |
BUT....just what if....to make it easier for newbies, all official factions, barring things like species, had an open join policy instead of a hmm....well, I am not sure you are good enough, turn your nose up policy. Instead.....all official factions let people enter their factions at an entry level only and THEN, during a period of actual RP time, see if that person is right for the faction, if they are not, THEN you can reject them.
This would get rid of the initial fear of rejection for newbs, and would give more people a chance to get involved and have less of a risk of isolating good RPers, leaving them feeling the only thing they can do is create their own group, rather than try and fit inside an existing one.
In other words, no faction may turn down an appilcation unless it were based on species (cats = CW, pure vamps = Breed, women = Sarcina, etc). Open join system, but it would only be a trial membership to see if you are right for each other. I am not sure about this idea, but might be worth looking at for Midian. |
| Ayr wrote: |
| Huge-ass groups who are split into 'divisions' are over-all pointless because they pick quantity over quality I've found. Then again, even small factions are guilty of this on occasion. |
Uhmm...if this was even remotely true, you would not be having trouble getting in, would you? Sorry, that just made little sense to me, you make arguments both ways. Saying both official factions are hard to get into and in the next breath saying they take quantity over quality.
Fact is....they don't and I find skimming off other's ideas and taking them as your own, as some of these new unofficial factions do, very detrimental to Midian and it's creativity. If you want to do your own faction...great, work for it and come up with your own original idea, don't hack off someone else's.
_________________
(Khepera Sutekh, aka Venom, founder/leader of KAOS, twin sis of Chigaru) BIO!>Pera
inventor of orig. Synthnip©- accept no knockoffs! |
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| Ayr |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 13
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| I pretty much agree with what you said up there Aegyptia. My mind was a bit scattered trying to write the post. I think your ideas is probably the best solution to the problem (or potential problem), at hand. |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 774
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Seeing as we seem vaguuely on topic again, I'll rejoin.
As for having been in a faction 6 months, that, I think, is minor detail, the general idea was there Aegy, I was just pointing out a potential scenario.
As for my example being relevant, I wouldn't have made it if I didn't think it was, it seems perfect to me as an example of a new group copy catting an older group, not doing any of the leg work and getting somehting very cheap at the end of it.
The problems with faction appications is that, try as we might, they go missing, or people intend to answer and forget, or something. When I ran the Mercs I found it hard to manage, and I don't think Craven has really fixed the problem entirely either, there is though a an idea I', running past current mercs at the moment to have a more streamlined process centred around an open enrollment recruitment group, so IC meets and the like can be arranged, and the import part of the business can be stressed. It is a problem, but then joinign a faction isn't just about making an application, it is about hanging round the gang and getting integrated IC.
The thing is, as I illustrated with my example about the Mercs, the only gang I am really qualified to speak on in detail, is that people dont try with the offical faction and fail, for whatever reason, they just go straight to creating a faction. If you explore how I structured the Guild, it is predominantly an OOC group for contracts, and IC only signifies holding a merceneray license, within it, after a meeting and approval by the Guild Master, sub groups and cooperatives can be formed for specific niche's in the Official Faction, and these are earned via imagination and roleplay... But - Noone bothered to even check.
As for taking offence at what Lancer said, I don't, all I can say is if I had to put proviso's int everything I right, and add the word 'argueably' to everything, I would never stop writing. Everything I write is my opinion, I beleive it to be correct, else I wouldnt say it, simple as. I also don't attack people behind ideas, or take criticism of my posts personally. I will highlight flaws I see in peoples ideas, but won't attack the people behind the idea, but that, I beleive, is simply manners.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Belial |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Mar 2008
Posts: 74
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| Masha Eilde wrote: |
| Kyril Sylbert wrote: |
| the problem is that the existing factions suffer from it. Right at the moment where some factions are really low on members it is like poison to their RP if an unofficial group takes up members that might have included themselfes or the like into the existing system of factions. |
Perhaps we should examine this. Why are we having official factions with low membership, yet new unofficial groups popping up to the extent that people perceive it as happening too often? The latter indicates to me that interest in Midian has not waned, but rather, interest in the official factions has declined. OR, for some reason, people are finding barriers to getting in these official factions, or getting involved in the RP once they DO get in, or any number of possible theories.
Instead of getting angry at people for being proactive with their RP, I propose we look at what might be affecting the health of the official factions, honestly and openly, and see if we can figure out some solutions.
My three cents.
Cheers!
-M |
QFT, I tried to suggest this in a PM, but got attacked for it, lol.
Honest analysis seems to anger some people, but it's the only way for true solutions, IMO... |
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:56 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 651
Location: Undisclosed
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Some thoughts;
01..Deets announced a "group"...not a new Faction. Thats why I'm available to hire out to assist them. I'm a greedy Merc, and as a member of the second-oldest profession I expect pay-for-play.
02..Generally, if we want to have gang -vs-gang warfare to make the streets of Midian dangerous/fun again...you kinda need more than one gang willing to go looking for trouble..preferrably several. The recent truces have that at a low ebb. Thats perfectly kewl for the groups involved - but if you want to *seek* that kind of down and dirty RP..you sorta have to make your own opportunities. IMO...its more blessed to make something happen than to sit and wait for someone else to do so.
03..Speaking as a Merc and the group's hired-gun advisor - I kinda view the generation of IC conflict to be a good thing. More RP, more people sending Credits into Merc coffers - all good.
Now..I held off on voicing (some) of my opinions while people were applying some un-flattering descriptors to Deets and myself for one reason; I was certain anything I said to directly address the underpinnings of her proposal for a group would be construed by some as a public slam at my former faction. Yhats not a moral quandry that would trouble some folks, but as I LIKE the gals in my former faction - I worried about it.
ICly I may have some angst/hard feelings. OOCly I have nothing to complain about - it was fun, the situation evolved and we all moved on.
So...I believe that Midian has room for groups who want to push 'action", be assertive, get in each other's faces, rape, pillage and burn even. Deets' proposal was about competiton IMO (and was not quite Rape pillage and Burn)..and competition only serves the players as longas its IC competition, consent is obtained and no one really expects to "win".
Anyway, I'm not gonna post on this topic further. I'm just the hired-help and my IC job in this case is to teach "kill and maim" to some people who are willing to pay me to beat on them  (what a kewl job) 
I'm not carrying any grudges over anything said here, I consider this all good debate - I hope others feel the same.
_________________
~Deb Charron
Blackstar Military Services
Regional Commander
Pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/debcharron/ |
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| Satomi Ashbourne |
| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 108
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I feel compelled to defend the MIEG at this point, so, very calmly, here goes.
1. I think the MIEG are unique as a group in Midian - they are purely capitalistic, and will sell nekos to anyone (including other nekos) who can afford their prices. Such wanton pursuit of the bottom line few other factions, if any, have, and I think it's an interesting change to be working for a group which reveres the almighty $/€/£/¥/Midian currency.
2. The MIEG is not expected to be around forever, and in gratitude for their OOC cooperation during a few glitches, I have no problem letting them beat the shit out of our base and our employees.
3. The MIEG was created for a purpose, not as a factional ego trip. Amidst all the forum bitching about Midian's evil-ness, I got the idea of stirring things up by putting a monster in the shadows. Hating gore personally, I started looking in other directions, and hit on the idea of brainrape. The idea of taking a normal, healthy neko and destroying their independence without leaving a scratch is pretty scary, and that's exactly what the MIEG does. Sadly, it's unclear whether the IC brainwashing or the OOC MIS-management is scarier.
4. Responding to the comment about the growing number of "import" groups J8 referenced... If that was with reference to us and if he'd bothered to do any background research before mounting his soapbox, he'd know the MIEG only imports staff members. Yes, gasp, it's a faction which has the stated OOC purpose of finding excellently evil RPers and getting them hooked on Midian. *Obviously* a waste of time showing no work or creativity </sarcasm>.
In conclusion: Faction cloning for ego trips = bad. The MIEG is not such a clone.
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