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| J8 Skall |
 Posted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject: New Factions |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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Right, as a few of you may have noticed, I have reacted today to a couple of new factions being announced, and wanted to give my thoughts on the issue in it's wider context, and ask what others think.
Firstly, I am not against new factions, far from it, I think new factions are exciting opportunities for roleplay.
However I believe a new faction should offer the following.
> A well thought out, well planned and well documented guide or plan to the faction, and people should be consulted during it's development. Also Jade, or Camilla should be contacted to discuss the ideas out of common courtesy.
> A new gang should add something to the city, and should act to stimulate or enhance atleast one aspect of the sim's roleplay, it shouldn't act as a parasite and leech off the players and roleplay that exists, but ratehr it should create and drive play for others, and contribute to the sim atmosphere, background and ideals - 'doing a job' OOC.
> The gang should display some unique quality, rather than being a splinter faction from an existing gang, and fulfiling someone's egotistical desire to be a faction leader, I mean if you were that good - you'd have been promoted. A gang that is the same as what is already on offer, even if it is run better or has a tiny change, dilutes the attempts of offical Midian factions. For instance there should be no Mercenary groups out of the Guild, and having a uniform and funky codenames doesnt make for a unique concept, there should be a reasonw hy they cant join an existsing faction of OOC regulatory group. A final point, too many samey gangs recruiting confused newbies, who think they are joining an official faction, but aren't.
> There should be genuine IC thought going into the context for a gang. A reason to exist and thought to explain why they operate in a certain way. You have to put effort into explaining WHY the gang has come to be as it is...
> The gang should have some unifying image, even if that image is soemhting vague. This doesn't mean having a uniform, or being all the same, but it does mean having something to distinguish you as not being a place for all comers... And if you do take all comers, explain how the politics and social dynamics in the faction work, why does that snobby vampire put up with that annoying common neko for instance? Why does that multibillionaire super armoured mech run a business that sells cheese and onion crisps? The fact they were the only newbies you could recruit, and non of them 'fit' the gang just wont do.
> Also, put some bloddy effort into the whole thing, wow people with the package, your ideas, IC context, OOC thinking and vision, show you have examined other options and ways of doing things through the official channels, and that you have addressed key concerns.
> Make sure the city knows who you are, and this faction isnt your tenth post on the forum, after spending a week in the city, establish yourself and learn how the city works, build up a good rep before you try and be a faction leader.
> Don't pretend your faction is official. Don't throw your weight around in the way an offical faction leader might have licence to do (sometimes, only when sensible). Be honest with all potential recruits, telling them if you aren't an offical faction, and don't act like starting a group has suddently elevated you in the city to some kind of Faction Leader or Admin position, as it's pretty low, you haven't 'earned' it.
So - they are my thoughts on the matter, what the problem is, and what should and shouldn't be done, and how a new faction should, I think, be approached.
Hopefully I'm bringing up a point, witht he issue now verging on ridiculous many will agree with me on, but even if not - this is what I think, and it should atleast spark debate.
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Aegyptia Elvehjem |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:15 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Posts: 1270
Location: raising hell...or Bangkok Records
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Here is something I suggested to City Hall in a thread of this same issue back on March 1st, but the discussion sorta got dropped. Most of the points you have made Jay, were made there as well and I very much agree with what you have said.
The only thing these 2 man copycat factions accomplish is the dillution of RP and not only that, make it so official factions have even a harder time recruiting and orienting newcomers. We are going to end up with a whole city of 2 man factions eventually if something is not done to stop this trend...at that point, we may as well get rid of the faction system.
| Aegyptia Elvehjem wrote: |
Here's an idea that may work, just adding a little to the rules that were already supposed to be in existence....make it a requirement that in order to start any unofficial faction, you:
1. have to have an original idea, not rehash other's ideas
2. the leader of this proposed unofficial faction must have a 6 month or more verifiable RP history in Midian as an active member of an existing official faction (this will solve a lot I think adding this to the requirements because it will promote joining existing official factions before going off half cocked trying to start your own, this way too, they will probably get caught up in the faction they had to join to meet the requirement and may change their mind altogether on forming their own)
3. you must submit the idea in writing, fully drawn out to Jade or Cam for their approval
4. the start of an unofficial faction has to be approved by Jade or Camilla, if they give you that approval, you then may start on gathering the requirements of being an official faction, that being-
a. you must have met all requirements for forming a non-official faction
b. you have to have a certain amount of active members and at least three of them have to have been in Midian RPing for more than 6 months
c. your approved un-official faction must have been in successful RP operation in Midian for at least 3 months
d. should the leadership become inactive/abandoned for longer than a month, they are subject to faction removal and or replacement of leadership
e. only official factions are given HQ's, a reward for jumping through all these hurdles and proving themselves in RP |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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I would agree on the 6 month front for Faction leadership in terms of roleplaying in the city, but it doesn't need to be spent in an existing faction.
Often players won't fit into existing factions, no matter how hard they try (though some don't try hard enough). When I was given Merc leadership I had been in the city about 6 months, and before that had been a Hound for 3/4 months.
But I do agree they should be known in the city, and have made an attempt to integrate, think I wrote that, although in a less concise way, somewhere...
Also, what are the criteria for getting into that forum, because it seems to be where everything interesting is discussed and decisions are made now, and I didn't know it existed till a week or so ago.
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| MarkkoOndricek |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 30 Jul 2007
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Location: you will see me if I let you
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| Quote: |
| d. should the leadership become inactive/abandoned for longer than a month, they are subject to faction removal and or replacement of leadership |
A month wow, I feel neglectful while I am away at work....egh, perhaps that is a sign of addiction, nah couldn't be....
But anyway, just being charge doesn't make a leader anyway, and many 'start-up' factions fizzle quickly when that realization comes. Not to discredit anyone, it is just not an easy task, especially when its time to make a bad decision, either way you still have to make it.
...and that is a bit off topic too I think...
I like all the points, I think the IC characteristic of being well known, Rp'ed with and already having people see you as a 'leader' within whatever circle of friends you are with means alot before striking out on one's own. Having a good hold on your IC environment in general is integral to being able to have a group people will roleplay with. OOC you can be anything you want, but if no one interacts IC whats the use. And to get down to things its all about IC anyway forget the OOC stuff, if you want results do it ingame, make it matter.
enough of my drivel...next!
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| Masha Eilde |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 382
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((
Okay, I probably shouldn't dive in to this thread but I want to speak up for the other side a bit.
I don't know Ayr, but I *do* know Debra and Deets and they are both stellar roleplayers, intelligent GM's and superlative organizers, planners with creativity up the wazoo.
Yes, I said wazoo.
Existing factions should feel threatened ICly - it's a new gang moving in town, potentially. OOCly, if the faction is strong, why on earth should it be problem?
I know from personal experience that Jade DOES respond to faction requests, gives feedback, AND gives permission to go with it unofficially.
I submitted my own faction proposal to Jade and after some back and forth, I have permission to go for it unofficially to see what happens. I'm waiting for an IC catalyst because I want it to evolve naturally and as the city changes organically, one will present itself and reach Masha's big ol' coyote ears. Meanwhile, I'm building up a few stories that will need to support the story arch (one that's going to be really spiffy cool that I've initiated with Father Eamon and his faction) underpinning the faction I have in mind.
IF it occurs (and as I told Jade, there's no guarantee, because I'm in no hurry and I want things to trigger from IC story) I don't plan to recruit in the forums. I plan to recruit IC.
A final note: Stomping all over people who post here about new faction ideas is, I think, detrimental to roleplay and to Midian as a whole. It squashes creativity. It limits potential. It projects an attitude that the story is locked down and newer folks who have good leadership potential and ICly don't fit the existing gangs either have to go up to an existing leader, boot them, change the faction name/raison d'etre, and that is really all for the HQ. Or they must fly solo. Why should they? If they have the cojones to drum up their own gang, let 'em duke it out!
With prim limits, there's only so many HQ's we have so there's a very practical reason to limit official factions. But small unofficial gangs, once they get a nod from Ms. Jade? I say the more the merrier.
It's an organic, free form story. Where more than three people gather, you get a committee. Find some people who play well together or find common ground and they'll want to give themselves a name and some colors. They may fade away (just as many of new unofficial factions do) from boredom or because they get crushed by existing groups, but that's about the roleplay!
And we're all here to roleplay. Right?
Cheers!
-M
))
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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I am not questioning the qualifications of people like Deets and Debra to lead gangs, although Debra is the only one I really know. It is more the fact that their idea is exactly the same as the Sarcina, it isn't squashing creativity, because, to be quite frank, the idea isn't creative.
You can have two groups of 5, both termes strong and lead by good roleplayers, or one group of 10. In terms of having an effect on the city, stimulating internal roleplay and making the dynamics accessible to newcomers, the larger group works better.
The new gangs are just a series of splinterings from the main factions, and don't do a job that isn't already done. Upon leaving a group now people look to start one up, instead of examine the options for their character.
I know Jade, to her credit, is receptive to ideas, but some of them aren't even run past her, and many are just the same unimaginative rehashing of an existing concept that probally isn't needed.
And people need to bare in mind, this isn't real life, it is a roleplay sim. You don't have some invisable blocker stopping you forming a group, but that doesn't mean its healthy for roleplay to do that.
*edited by moderator*
If you blur the lines and fragment Midian too much into small groups, then you dont get a roleplay sim, you just get the same happy families living in isolation.
I am all for new ideas that do a job in the city, indeed I think it needs a couple of new factions in some areas to fulfil some jobs, but they aren't the ones being proposed.
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Bunker
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If what Jay just written is truth, Midian doesnt deserve to survive as roleplay community, because we are already lost.
Luckily, in my own perception he is wrong.
People are forming new things probably based on disagreement with something that already exist. IC or OOC. IC reason is the most valid reason in roleplay sim. Where you see only downside of smaller groups, I see options for diplomacy, new hatreds, wars over turf. When you step into someone´s garden, they will most likely release hounds. Might be your response to your "not enough gritty good old Midian", might be the solution you are looking for.
The main thing is that any new faction will ultimately proove or destroy itself and the life will go on. If it is going to be weak, it will fall, either ignored, or scattered by force. If it is strong it will either find own area whwere it will take its lead, or perhaps crush the original group, so what. Or they will stay even, at war, or form alliance, settle their disputes and become one again.
I still see no harm done.
On what I agree is that people starting factions should be in Midian for some time, or they will be completely out of the loop - which will most likely make them fall though, only thing is that it might hurt everyone around by pure annoyance of destroying atmosphere in brutal way. As it is with people with no patience to observe before interfereing.
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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You wouldnt be annoyed if I set up a UAC marine faction Mordag?
I made it form a different battalion, and distribited better equipment to attract players?
I hijacked your recruitment process and confused newcomers into thinking my faction was official, and I didn't have to put any effort into this new gang. I simply lift all the work you lot have done on background and concept, and begin to fulfil your role in the city...
I think you would be rather pissed, and rightly so. I also think it would damage the roleplay in the sim by splitting up players who could, with alittle work, play togetehr, it would bemuse newcomers, and it would dilute the whole aspect of faction play.
There are no turf wars because there is competition for the same resource - every faction wants something different and is OOC scared of IC conflict.
Alot of factiosn start as a pure exercise in punping up one's ego, and an unwillingness to work on anything that could take effort, like having a new idea, or fitting your character into an existing gang. Creating a new 2/3 man faction is just a get out clause.
Midian would be stronger for betetr control over new factions starting up,to ensure that only the best get through, those that are worth while.
If you want to know what the old Midian many people would like to see returning was like, then you need to find out what it was about. There were less factiosn though, it was easier to control OOC conflict and people put effort into their roleplay. *edited by moderator*
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Deets Carroll |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 29 Aug 2007
Posts: 295
Location: According to this map, I'm over there somewhere.
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Wow... so much OOC vitriol over a few lines posted in the IC forums...
Okay, the only response I'm going to make is:
*edited by moderator*
b) My group will live or die according to its ability to generate good RP for its members, and ultimately for other citizens of Midian. I accept that, but I think it's fair that we be given the chance. I would think that all groups would be held to the same standard, official factions or not.
c) I have been in Midian for around eight months. What I know of roleplaying, I learned here. In my various alts, I have been a dancer, bartender, and lead security at the TZ, a bartender at the 4H, a member of the Forgotten, a neko Stray, and a Centurion of the Sarcina. I have been fortunate enough to contribute a few modest items to builds around the city. Many people have been around longer, but please credit me with some knowledge of what Midian is about and how things are done here.
d)The post I made in the Streets of Midian forum was a teaser. It was IC. It wasn't meant to be complete. It wasn't a faction application submitted for anyone's review. If anyone would care to ask me what I was up to IN WORLD, I would be happy to explain.
e) Before anyone attempts to find trouble where there isn't any. Deb and I are former Sarcina Centurions. We have spent enough time in the Sarcina to have a pretty good understanding of what they're about, thank you very much. OOC, we wish O and her faction well, there are no hard feelings at all.
Have fun with this thread, I'll see you in-world. |
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| MarkkoOndricek |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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*edited by moderator*
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Kyril Sylbert |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
Posts: 51
Location: The Society of Ancient Arts.. now find out where that is!
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I agree with Jay and Aegy. It is not that I want to stop everyone's fun or the creativity they might have put in the idea of their groups but the problem -and this is not directed at the two new groups that just got announced- the problem is that the existing factions suffer from it. Right at the moment where some factions are really low on members it is like poison to their RP if an unofficial group takes up members that might have included themselfes or the like into the existing system of factions.
Maybe the people who create themselfes factions that seem to be a copy of another in the first place might find an allready existing faction that they haven't thought off yet as much interesting as the concept they had for their own unofficial one. And being in Midian for a while in another faction or even a couple other factions doesn't automatically mean you HAVE to lead something at some point. It rather means that if you have left something you weren't comfortable with anymore you should find something else and put your effort into it. If you are as good as you deem yourself by creatin gyour own group you will get a chance in there to do something more than 'just being a member'.
And about attacking Jay. He is probably one of the few people who really add something to a discussion. You can disagree but you still have to respect other opinions than your own... |
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| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 409
Location: Bunker
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Interesting enough, I didnt find any real atack against Jay.
Also, I cannot really judge who is more supported by others or not, even if mattered in pure voicing of opinion.
Regarding the response about the UAC, I am a member of UAC faction. Believe it or not, it has subfactions it consists of, people gave ideas and it was allright to accept them in some cases. Here we go. Those who had some weight are part till now, those that ditn are faded. All sorted in civil manner. Also, this thread is abotu starting NEW faction, not starting old faction. *edited by moderator*
On the other hand, if you did start another military faction, started to recruit people for your faction, I am fine with it, I dont care, happened before, probably will happen in the future. Competition never hurts and in the end it could only benefit people of both factions.
If there was no effort put into creation of other military faction, it would get into isolation, people would dismiss it and it would fade, no harm done. If it was better than UAC so much that UAC would be wiped off the face of Midian, so why not? Again it could only contribute to players in long run.
It has been mentioned, IC drive should be main drive for roleplay, not scheming behind things OOC. Sucgh is my opinion on the topic.
And as Kyril mentioned, it can happen that new factions will damage old factions. That they get poisoned by new factions. Well, the news is that it works this way for milenias in the world. Evolution - new and better wipes out old and useless. It doesnt really hurt the world, quite contrary. Of coruse there are exceptions, some concepts outlasted many new ones and of course many new paths in evolution didnt lead anywhere. Such is life.
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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*edited by moderator*
As for my example, it is what is ahppening to Midian's mercs, and none of the new groups obnsevre the same roleplay rules, and end up benifiting form Guild roleplay to cause conflict, yet the guild dont see the end result.
You have to bear in mind Mordag, that alot of the arguements you make are survival of the fittest arguements, based on real life. There are two reasons this is the wrong approach.
> Most popular isn't always best - in terms of roleplay Cola, Norsim, Toxia and Gor are all more popular that Midian... But if you think they are better sims you need your head testing, often it will be survival of the fad, the sim will degrade if we pander to whats popular for a short time.
> Also, as this isn't real life, we don't want our offical factions to fall off the map because they were usurped by gangs that learnt from their mistakes and offers silly incentives, or a chance to feel important. Jade want's the offical factiosn to be the basis of Midian, that should be reason enough to make attempts to preserve them, afterall, whose sim are you in?
I agree with what Kyril added, and it just reinforces the point about it diluting existing factiosn, and splitting members up. Of the 5-6 groups doing things the Merc Guild and Black Star does, I can see absolutely no reason, OOC or IC, why they couldn't join under the official faction, yet it doesn't happen and roleplay suffers.
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...)
Last edited by J8 Skall on Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Masha Eilde |
| Posted: Wed Apr 23, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 382
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| Kyril Sylbert wrote: |
| the problem is that the existing factions suffer from it. Right at the moment where some factions are really low on members it is like poison to their RP if an unofficial group takes up members that might have included themselfes or the like into the existing system of factions. |
Perhaps we should examine this. Why are we having official factions with low membership, yet new unofficial groups popping up to the extent that people perceive it as happening too often? The latter indicates to me that interest in Midian has not waned, but rather, interest in the official factions has declined. OR, for some reason, people are finding barriers to getting in these official factions, or getting involved in the RP once they DO get in, or any number of possible theories.
Instead of getting angry at people for being proactive with their RP, I propose we look at what might be affecting the health of the official factions, honestly and openly, and see if we can figure out some solutions.
My three cents.
Cheers!
-M
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