|
| What modern arms and armor should we find in Midian? |
View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message
|
| J8 Skall |
 Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
|
It is hijacking the post, but we'll have to agree to disagree, I think, based on my own knowledge, the downfall of the knight was economic and social, not military, and guns were no more effective than other ranged weapons until after the knights were gone.
They were more efficent, in terms of training and production, but no more effective.
I also maintain my reason for why armour was heavier in Medieval times is correct.
It's hijacking the htread to go on, but I think your going on a romantic, very basic misconception, that of 'guns beat plate steel'.
Not that medieval warfare was the point of my post anyways, it was the cyclical advancements of weapons and defence.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 396
Location: Bunker
|
I am willing to do a little compromise here. The downfall of armor was a thing that was secondarily caused economicaly as it is something you dont wish to invest to when it offers no more suitable protection. It offers no more suitable protection because steel plate wont hold against gunfire unless you make this vertical rib on front to make the bullet recoil to side. Which is really doable only on chestpiece and therefore it is only part of steel armor that managed to survive that long. But the full plate started to lose also to prolonged polearms and thin blades able to hurt where full plate does not offer protection.
To make the armor still suitable light, you just strip parts that are no longer that effective and strengthen the front plating to protect enough against new technologies.
And I agree that social factor is present too, thanks to cities. Where common folks became rich and started to express their emancipation to match nobility.
And to add something to the topic and to also make Charles happy with me to be typicaly in disagreement, as always, I think that RP system does not need to be ballanced, when main factor is atmosphere and not win.
On the other hand, and thats where Charles is right, in broad network RP with anyone allowed in, human factor is where this my statement fails.
_________________
 Cpt. Mordag McCallen, BEng(1), SrTech 1st class |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| ghandi |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 246
Location: Somewhere In The World
|
I'm not going to contribute to modern arms discussion or historical arms discussion because people are obviously more articulate and knowledgeable than me on both counts.
But I was interested in the weapons actually available to the people of Midian. Yes, guns and the like would probably be (read as they are because they are) there for people to use. But a good amount of the population simply has no reason to have some of the weapons that they do. No experience in war, no ties to suppliers of weapons...
So I'm surprised there aren't more people walking around with some sort of creative melee objects. Someone could theoretically be making the swords and knives out of metal found around the city and I'm sure some faction or person could jump on that. But how about using what's available and making something else that works? Because it's not as cool as the sword or whip? I'm just a little surprised that besides the fork stick and the rat flail, there isn't more of this being used by the people.
_________________
Jesus saves; everyone else takes full damage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ghandikamachi/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 396
Location: Bunker
|
| ghandi wrote: |
I'm not going to contribute to modern arms discussion or historical arms discussion because people are obviously more articulate and knowledgeable than me on both counts.
But I was interested in the weapons actually available to the people of Midian. Yes, guns and the like would probably be (read as they are because they are) there for people to use. But a good amount of the population simply has no reason to have some of the weapons that they do. No experience in war, no ties to suppliers of weapons...
So I'm surprised there aren't more people walking around with some sort of creative melee objects. Someone could theoretically be making the swords and knives out of metal found around the city and I'm sure some faction or person could jump on that. But how about using what's available and making something else that works? Because it's not as cool as the sword or whip? I'm just a little surprised that besides the fork stick and the rat flail, there isn't more of this being used by the people. |
There is a person in the city who has as primary weapon golf club.
But then again, it apears most on forums would agree on point of "no reason to have these", but there is sorta no way to enforce this in sim. We can only cry our eyes out on that topic, I am afraid.
_________________
Cpt. Mordag McCallen, BEng(1), SrTech 1st class |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| ghandi |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 246
Location: Somewhere In The World
|
| Mordag McCallen wrote: |
But then again, it apears most on forums would agree on point of "no reason to have these", but there is sorta no way to enforce this in sim. We can only cry our eyes out on that topic, I am afraid. |
I don't think so. I'm not much for the only crying eyes out. I think it's more of a simple problem of hardly no one builds makeshift weapons. Guns and swords are definitely in abundance on SL. If there's something that bothers me, I try to fix it. Guess my solution would be to head to the drawing board and see what else I can make.
_________________
Jesus saves; everyone else takes full damage.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ghandikamachi/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 396
Location: Bunker
|
| ghandi wrote: |
I don't think so. I'm not much for the only crying eyes out. I think it's more of a simple problem of hardly no one builds makeshift weapons. If there's something that bothers me, I try to fix it. Guess my solution would be to head to the drawing board and see what else I can make. |
Do I love you Ghandi or what? I like what you just said, especialy because you told me in a very polite way that I am coward who gives up before trying. I think it is time for me to get back into some sandbox and start being creative yet again. *hugs*
_________________
Cpt. Mordag McCallen, BEng(1), SrTech 1st class |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
|
Not the place to argue Mordag, but alot of that information is false.
Come visit a British Museum, the Tower is good... See the bullet holes in armour, and learn about what your looking at outside of that... The holesdarmour isn't ever 'knight's armour', its later melee and long range weapons armour, your talkign about two entirely different eras and getting the dynamics iof each mixed up. There was a big gap between the two examples your talking about, and your reasoning on why full plate armour was redundant is simply wrong.
But I won't persuade you about how our history works, though you do, if you look closely at examples and dates, rather than parroting the myth of bullets beating armour, that the decline in the romantic knight was entirely due to it being cheaper and less risky to send troops rather than saddle up yourself and go die. Indeed the time spent training to be a knight could be better spent drinking and gambling and conducting city business, or just collecting taxes.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 396
Location: Bunker
|
| J8 Skall wrote: |
Not the place to argue Mordag, but alot of that information is false.
Come visit a British Museum, the Tower is good... See the bullet holes in armour, and learn about what your looking at outside of that... The holesdarmour isn't ever 'knight's armour', its later melee and long range weapons armour, your talkign about two entirely different eras and getting the dynamics iof each mixed up. There was a big gap between the two examples your talking about, and your reasoning on why full plate armour was redundant is simply wrong.
But I won't persuade you about how our history works, though you do, if you look closely at examples and dates, rather than parroting the myth of bullets beating armour, that the decline in the romantic knight was entirely due to it being cheaper and less risky to send troops rather than saddle up yourself and go die. Indeed the time spent training to be a knight could be better spent drinking and gambling and conducting city business, or just collecting taxes. |
I can only tell you to go read the initial post of mine. I am talking based on tests and experience. Parroting blindly what I have seen or experienced, among others, so yes, you are right.  Oh, we have some nice historical museums here too.
_________________
Cpt. Mordag McCallen, BEng(1), SrTech 1st class |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 1:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
|
I realise Wikipedia isnt the best source, but its late, and all I could find int the small hours of the morning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights#The_decline_of_the_medieval_knight
Here is the link, and that in itself includes some more sources.
The decline of knights wasn't my point anyways, my point was made, but just proving your dismissal off what I said wrong  .
Wikipedia is just the basic though, and can be bias, I assure you if you research around the topic you will find I was right.
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| October Hush |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 719
Location: Rooftops, Catwalks and Streets in Midian City
|
I'm definitely with Ghandi...I would love to see more people using melee weapons...or...anything but guns, really! I do try to encourage the new members of the CWs to carry something other than a gun...it just makes for much more interesting roleplay.
I really feel that the city, as a whole, needs to arm down more. That also includes armor. I would say over 95% of my time is spent completely armor-less (in case the little miniskirts and tank tops I wear all the time didn't tip you off). I only don my hardsuit when there's a major combat event going on (28 days of blood rush, "Zed-Day", ents in our pants) and even then, the armor I wear is not bullet proof...it's very abrasion, puncture, impact, and fire-resistant, but that's about it. I refuse to wear anything stronger than that.
_________________
*mew*
Tober
Don't underestimate the power of cute.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/octoberhush/
http://octoberhush.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 15 Jan 2008
Posts: 396
Location: Bunker
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Lancer Oldrich |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Posts: 57
|
| ghandi wrote: |
I don't think so. I'm not much for the only crying eyes out. I think it's more of a simple problem of hardly no one builds makeshift weapons. Guns and swords are definitely in abundance on SL. If there's something that bothers me, I try to fix it. Guess my solution would be to head to the drawing board and see what else I can make. |
| October Hush wrote: |
| I'm definitely with Ghandi...I would love to see more people using melee weapons...or...anything but guns, really! I do try to encourage the new members of the CWs to carry something other than a gun...it just makes for much more interesting roleplay. |
Hovering around near dumpsters in high traffic places has caused this one to notice quite a number of people packing firearms visibly, but the majority of these seem to be of the semiautomatic, hand pistol type, with a smattering of automatic rifles for the the heavily-armed ones, usually associated with those respective factions, but since I don't know the names of all of them yet, I just refer to them as those peoples in "black gears" or whatever sleek-looking-yet-color-coordinated-tactical-gear they are wearing hehe.
Since coming here, I have seen one pulse rifle. One sniper rifle. And one rifle which was sci-fi, hightech and looked blatanty powerful. Being new, maybe this is too much to see in one's wanderings everyday?
Firearms, armor only appeared to ramp up noticeably when there was a simwide event occurring.
As far as makeshift weapons go, actually there's quite a few objects that are laying around. I've found metal pipes and broken bottles etc. etc., so they definitely are available if you look. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| Oceania Goodliffe |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 731
Location: The Twilight Zone
|
*shakes her head reading the thread*
I walk around the city and am completely amazed that:
People who say their character is from Midian (as in born in Midian) is outfitted with armor and semiautomatic weapons - where did they get them? just found them lying around the streets - Midian is not a rich prosperous town for most people - unless you get into a faction who has something going on, money does not come easy
People can fire their guns on a whim and never run out of ammo - doesn't the ammo cost money?
Random street fights don't break out - why? - cause everyone has a set of guns strapped to their thighs and knows how to use them - it isn't about who is strongest or most cunning anymore it is who has more L and can get the gear for their AV
O has a glock that was a gift from the then leader of the Mercs when she first left Damian - she rarely wears it - she doesn't know how to use it - only practiced with it a couple times but doesn't like it so it got put away - she prefers her dagger which was also a gift from Damian as was her katana which she can use but is not as comfortable with
We have become a well armed city that could probably have a war with another city and win - but does everyone that carries all these weapons and wears all this armor actually have the means ICly to get it and afford it?
Meaning where did they get the cash to get the weapons and armor? Who did they get it from?
This topic is "What modern arms and armor should we find in Midian?" but we also need to ask is it feasible for everyone in Midian to have them
_________________
B.I.T.C.H. (Babe In Total Control of Herself)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oceaniagoodliffe/
Sometimes you don't need good to fight evil, you need a different kind of evil. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| SerinaLoring |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 07 Feb 2008
Posts: 16
|
As far as weapons go, it's way beyond the scope of this thread to figure out how to reduce the level and number of guns in Midian. Or to debate the merits of clothing you buy on SLX as if it's actual protection from gunfire. But it IS worth trying to nail down an accepted set of assumptions about what is reasonable RP, if you choose to wear armor.
So, for the sake of argument, assume there will be powerful guns, and assume everyone's armor is impenetrable, and let's examine the ramifications for roleplay. There are certain fundamental laws of physics that it is highly unlikely will be bypassed in Midian's time, if ever.
If you get hit by a bullet, a certain amount of force will be transmitted to your armor. Even if your armor is impenetrable, the kinetic energy of the bullet will still need someplace to go. As I mentioned in a previous post, a decent handgun from today's technology (.44 Magnum) at close range will knock a large man off his feet. The force felt inside the armor will be a function of how well it is able to distribute it across your body, but it has to go SOMEWHERE.
The only way to reliably resist such an impact is with sufficient mass. This means HEAVY armor. EVEN if your armor is 'powered' (which has its own set of issues) it has MASS and MOMENTUM AND INERTIA. You WILL be slow to get moving and you will NOT stop on a dime. You will not change direction easily, and if you try, you will be much more susceptible to loss of traction on ice, or loose gravel or oily surfaces. If your armor is not 'powered' you will tire more quickly than an unarmored opponent in similar physical condition. You may be a formidable fighter but speed and agility should not be among your strengths.
If your armor is NOT massive, you're gonna feel the impact of the bullet. You will almost certainly be knocked off balance, you could be knocked to the ground. The kinetic energy of the bullet will be distributed across some part of your body. Perhaps it will cause bruising, or cracked or broken ribs, or internal injuries, but it is NOT reasonable RP to simply claim the bullet hit but did no damage.
Putting aside the debate about number and type of guns, and levels of armor, does this seem a reasonable guideline for roleplay in this context? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 788
Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
|
Civilised Society is always much ruder and agressive than barbarian society... Cause a civilized person won't get their skull split open for an insult, a barbarian might.
Midian is abit liek that, step out of line and your riddled with bullets by half a million aggrieved parties, so people don't. And you cant deny OOC consent or dodge or they bitch about you godmoding.
Course if, like in the old days, your weapon was a dagger in your boot and perhaps a pistol in your pants, the possibility for silly overreactions wasn't there, and as you daid, it was about cunning, strengeth and intimidation. Therefore, it was meaner - that's not the only reason, but one of them...
_________________
Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
