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| What modern arms and armor should we find in Midian? |
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| theshadow |
 Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: What modern arms and armor should we find in Midian? |
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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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I figured we should debate some of the gear available in Midian, seeing as how I'd rather do it here than OOC on the streets during RP... I'll list modern equipment in categories, with a short description of what it is, and we can argue over the details.
Body Armor:
Fragmentation Vest. frag vests use aramid fibers that are five times stronger than steel. An example is the Personnel Armor System for Ground Troops (PASGT) vest, adopted by the U.S. Army in 1976. Later versions – such as Germany’s Mehler Splitterschutzweste MIL-120 – are much lighter (5.7 lbs.) and better-designed. In the 1990s, the PASGT vest was upgraded with a carrier for ceramic plates (8 lbs. each) and called the Interim Small Arms Protective Overvest, or ISAPO (25 lbs.).
Early Concealable Vest. A concealable vest representative of those on the market since the late 1970s.
Concealable Vest. The lightest and most concealable protective vest currently on the market. It can be fitted with a trauma plate.
Assault Vest. A heavy ballistic vest, worn by SWAT teams and soldiers. The removable trauma plates provide protection against rifle-caliber weapons; the groin protector is also detachable. The Interceptor OTV (Outer Tactical Vest) is the current U.S. military-issue vest in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Anti-Stab Vest. A tight-weave ballistic vest – like those in the EnGarde Eagle Eye series – that can stop impaling damage as well as other attacks. It’s worn by corrections officers, and by police in areas with high levels of violent crime that doesn’t involve firearms (stabbings, beatings, etc.).
Advanced Body Armor. Pinnacle Armor’s SOV looks like a run-of-the-mill tactical ballistic vest – albeit thinner – but is much more advanced. Instead of relying on bulky plates, it takes a so-called “scalar” approach, using overlapping ballistic-resistant scales (each 2”-3” in diameter) made from a patented titanium-ceramic matrix. This makes it the only concealable vest capable of resisting rifle fire over the whole torso rather than just the vitals.
Shields
Bulletproof Shield. A heavy steel shield used by some military and police throughout the first half of the 20th century. It may have firing ports, allowing the shieldbearer to use the shield for cover and as a rifle brace while prone.
Riot Shield. A simple, medium-sized polycarbonate shield – often with “POLICE” stenciled across the front.
Entry Shield. A heavy shield deployed by a SWAT team when entering a building. It’s made to withstand gunfire, and uses materials similar to trauma plates (p. 67). Some models have mounts for lights or video displays on the front, or even steps that let the shield function as a stepladder for scaling walls.
'Clothes':
Anti-G Suit. This outfit helps a pilot tolerate the “G-forces” of high acceleration and rapid maneuvers. It typically covers the legs and lower abdomen, and uses air or water to limit blood flow away from the brain. It’s often worn with a fireproof suit (below).
Biohazard Suit. A bulky, hermetically sealed suit worn for protection from chemical spills and plagues. It cannot pass for clothing. It’s worn with an air mask or an SCBA, which fits completely under the suit. It’s incredibly hot. Later more advanced versions have a special lining that effectively blocks low-level radiation, protecting somewhat against gamma or beta radiation.
Clean Suit. A disposable paper suit (with booties, gloves, and hood) used in a “clean room,” or during forensic evidence collection or surgical operations. Investigators commonly wear a paper facemask – or optionally, an air mask – to avoid inhaling dried blood or fecal matter.
Dry Suit. A baggy, waterproof fullbody suit that keeps the wearer dry while diving. It resists thermal shock effects in cold water, but the diver must wear proper clothing beneath it to protect against the cold. A dry suit is loose-fitting enough to accommodate a stylish tuxedo underneath . . .
Fireproof Suit. A fire-resistant jumpsuit worn by race-car drivers, pilots, forest firefighters, and SWAT men for short-term flame protection.
NBC Suit. A disposable quilted suit with a charcoal lining that protects against radioactive fallout and poisonous gases. It quickly loses its seal in a wet environment, and must be stored in an airtight container. After 72 hours at most, it’s no longer reliable protection.
Space Suit. The “intravehicular” space suit of the Apollo missions – that is, the suit used inside the spacecraft. It consists of several layers of neoprene and nylon, along with a pressure bladder, biomedical attachments, a tightfitting cap equipped with headphones and mike, and a clear polycarbonate helmet.
Space Suit, EVA. This is the Apollo “extravehicular activity” (EVA) space suit. It’s essentially the intravehicular suit (above) with several additional features, including a liquid-cooled climate-control system, an outer protective shell, a life-support backpack (duration is 7 hours), and a short-range radio.
Turnout Gear. A modern firefighter’s outfit: coat, trousers, gloves, and hood. The suit absorbs water if it gets wet (up to twice normal weight!), which provides some extra protection from burn damage. If any flame or excessive heat penetrates this though it will cause even more damage – the water turns to steam inside the suit, and the firefighter can’t feel the heat until it’s too late!
Wetsuit. A neoprene or similar suit, it counts as winter clothing in cold water and provides a small amount of protection.
Bomb Disposal Suit. A modern ballistic suit, worn by bomb-disposal technicians. It fully encapsulates the wearer in bulletproof material – except for the hands, which are totally unprotected. This allows the bomb tech to work without being hampered by gloves. Some are fitted with a climate-control system.
I think that covers 'basic armor'... Powered Armor is a whole different story...
Last edited by theshadow on Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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| Quidos |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 11 Dec 2007
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You seem to be taking a more realistic approach to the things someone might be able to find in Midian if they had the money.
Some people feel that "Their friend got it for them" to be a good IC RP reason to tote around mutli billion mech armor that makes them look like little Gundams.
I find it odd how many people carry around armor and weapons that are worth more than the whole city.
But then again, nanites, which would calls millions per dosage, seem to be as common as water. I find grenades to be difficult enough to find in Midian, let alone super secret government created humanoid auto repairing nanite infused suits of armor. |
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| theshadow |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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Well the problem isn't so much the person whose 'friend bought it for them', it's the friend thinking it's so easy to acquire... Now also some bulky armors are not Powered Armor, and not nearly as expensive as you may think. In the particular case you mentioned I think the 'jet pack' was the real thing that pushed it past being beefy stylized version of more conventional suits... For all it had a big midriff area showing and hence was at best partial bulky armor...
Of course their can be alot of very high tech 'war relics' to that don't fit my list so far... These are all current (though Advanced Body Armor is state-of-the-art) designs of the modern world... Given another world war that background story wise has given us nanites, advanced genetic engineering, FTL Travel, and more what there potentially is available in such a world is considerably more... And I can saw honestly that I see no problem with someone saying in their backstory that the have such an relic, but tehy shouldn't be just giving away copies of it... |
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| Craven Umarov |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 10 Jul 2007
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Location: Midian City
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I know that most people simply have things available by saying.... got that from my friend on the mainland but also forget that they would need an explanation how they got something from the mainland into Midian. The city's not connected to the mainland that well so it would take some effort to get things into it... sorry for highjacking it a little.
But Shadey's idea is not that bad, I mean simple kevlar vests or some very good fabrics might be available in Midian without any trouble, seeing that we had a little 3rd world war that might have left lots of equipment to a huge amount of people. To have a gas mask, a neopren suit or a kevlar vest would be an easy things to tell people about, far more problematic is the use of super uber strong bodysuits that fill up your body with nanites, are bullet proof, record the superbowl and make you coffee. Even if that sort of armour would probably exist in Midian, it would still be heavy military gear that you might only get for trading with the legion.
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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There's also future tech to take into account.
Servo assisted lifting gear (say from a warehouse).
Fibre bundle assisted suits.
Impact resistant armour (flexible until hit/sharged with electricity).
Still suits (Think Dune, but cyberpunk, abit like NPC suits).
Gas masks of varous types.
Automated Nanotech/drug injectors.
The list goes on, some of it, depite beign futireistic, would be mass produced, other stuff is going to be very rare...
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| SerinaLoring |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 07 Feb 2008
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| Craven Umarov wrote: |
| far more problematic is the use of super uber strong bodysuits that fill up your body with nanites, are bullet proof, record the superbowl and make you coffee.. |
Hey, I almost bought one of those from a friend! But the coffee wasn't very good... |
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| Landen Balut |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:41 pm Post subject: modifier |
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Joined: 16 Aug 2007
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A major problem with us making assumptions about the technology/cost of said goods 50 years in the future is that as humans we are terrible at such exercises. Our brains can only follow logical linear paths. The problem is major technological advances are disruptive.
For example, something that isn't mentioned is that we have force fields. (crude now-- but in 50 years?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVdwvodPo8
we have rail guns
http://www.1timothy4-13.com/files/prophecy/incredweapons.html
Then you have to take into account where modern armor is (dragonskin being probably the top of the line commercially available product) and try to jump 50 years into the future of that technology...it is pretty impossible
oh. and we have a city of hybrids, vampires, and werewolves. Let's have a little honesty here 
*edit*
also, remember- weapons increase. armor is designed to protect against that weapon. new weapons are created to penatrate that armor. This is the ebb and flow of the weapons market.
Last edited by Landen Balut on Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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| Debra Charron |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 19 Sep 2007
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Location: Trying to get the furniture to rezz in my apartment
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Deb has a suit of military-grade non-powered amour that utilises a combination of a ballistic-mesh under-suit with a "hard" back-and-breast chest protector and some occasionally-worn arm/shoulder protectors that was fitted to her by the armourer of her old unit.
This is something that she was wearing when she "had to leave" the mainland, but unfortunately has no spares lying about for.
Think of one of the advanced concepts for the "Landwarrior" armour system which is supposed to incorporate an onboard computer, GPS, imaging systems, advanced comm gear as well as being "easier to wear" (yeah, right).
Deb no longer has access to a military armourer and the tooling it takes to maintain the suit, so the constant scrounging to keep the armour functional is interesting RP. It started with some internal sensors, internal environmental regulation (kept her from sweating herself to death), comm gear and other "fluff" goodies, which I have had become inoperative due to lack of spare parts or skilled maintainers. Essentially, she now has a protective suit thats fairly light and physically cooler to wear than conventional metal or ceramic armour.
The other downside is that lacking someone who can rework it should her body gain or lose a lot of weight, Deb has to RP taking steps to make sure she can actually fit into the thing - because porking up would leave her sans her protection.
Deb may be the Midian Founding Member of Jenny Craig.........
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~Deb Charron
Audentes Fortuna Juvat (Fortune Favors the Bold)
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| J8 Skall |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 20 Mar 2007
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Location: God knows.....Follow the trail of blood
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It's a very hard question to answer, though really there always has to be a balance between what is realistic future tech (we are a cyberpunk sim), and what is good for roleplay.
And its always worth remembering, the principles stay the same, whatever the tech. And just as 10,000 years ago, alot of conflict involves making holes in each other with fast moving sharp things. Midian is cut off, it makes sense for it to be primal.
I admit with potential Midian techlevels, if you could get the cutting edge technology of the time into a character's arsenal, they would be invincible... But where is the fun in that?
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Jay Skall
(All arguements [or discussion points] stated above are the player's opinion only, they are not truth from on high, the subversive whisperings of satan or the grunted rumblings of a troll... Incase you were struggling with the concept...) |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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I would rather stream line it into simple things rather than list every class available.
Light armour
Biker leathers full body coverage, avoid scrapes and such, no means bullet or stab proof. Certian degree of heat resistance though only short exposure.
Medium Light
Simple torso protection, resistant to small arms fire at a distance, resistant to slashes.not very good at dealing with direct stabs, Resistant
to tazer prongs... would say this is bassically what I wear. Not resistant to rifles or hand weapons fired close range.
Medium
Kevlar, helmet, knee and shoulder pads.
Heavy Medium
heavy coverage on head and chest light armour else where user is semi encumbered agility somewhat compromised
Heavy
Head to toe covered and totally encumbered speed and agility GREATLY reduced so as to be next to useless in close combat quarters.
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The above statements are opinions of the person behind the name "Charles Noble" these opinions may change over time, they may not agree with your opinon, that is the nature of opinions. Endevour to debate the "issue" not the "Person" |
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| Mordag McCallen |
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Joined: 15 Jan 2008
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Location: Bunker
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There is one more that would logicaly come to mind in setting where is lot of knives:
Chainmail and quilted coat
A kid can make chainmail in spare time with little requirement on materials or tools, you need only time and patience and it is almost unlitmate cover against all kinds of sharp weapons. At least against bleeding wounds. If someone smacks you with something heavy and sharp, it wont cut you, but it will easily damage the bone under it. Thats where quilted coat comes in, as it would consist from like 15 layers of fabric minimum, it offers good protection against stabs and slahses, also covering some impact power. Combined both together, very effective and easily homemade, with only little limitation to movement possibilites aside of its weight and therefore fatigue connected. And both easily handmade. Oh, lets not forget: Totaly useless against guns.
And now to weapons levels. Well, as far as story goes, UAC is based upon Doom series and there seems to be even the Mars terraforming project known from Doom 3. It would mean that UAC also has some sort of plasma guns. Which should NO WAY apear in Midian, as none wants these things to end up in hands of Midian people and they are not necesary, since the usual old time guns are sufficient to deliver the message. Or should be. We might be 50 years ahead, but isolated and cut from the best of best. We are after war. In society with huge difference of high and low class. And Midian is and should be on the downside, not the upper one.
And just for people who would wish to see how I designed a helmet for miltiary use I thought should be apropriate for Midian times, it is based on current headgear of SpecOps with 50 years of very evolution added (well, slow evolution). This is a notecard I atached to the model:
RBR SF MACH VII, NIJ III
The RBR MACH VII ADVANCED COMBAT HELMET is based on the original Special Forces MACH Design with a focus toward a lightweight, compact and streamlined design without any compromise to the ballistic protection.Unlike other products of the serie, MACH VII is suplied wilth full spectre of communication accesories, reching to meet maximum compatiblity - built in voice and visual communication system with projection to frontal face shield, camera with switchable NV and IR mode, flashlight and microphone. This, slightly increasing the maintanance certification levels, is designating MACH VII as ideal in short-term combat engagements, therefore mainly for police special tactical units. All the included systems are fully fit to be connected to any standard issue comm device. Standard headgear rechargable power source is tested for 12 hours warranted full service and can be complemented with belt battery unit extending service time up to 48 hours. The design is fully compatible with standard issue NVG, IRG, or gas mask. Helmets provide un-matched Level III protection and include the RBR 4-point suspension system secured with only four bolts to ensure maximum ballistic integrity, comfort and stability. The head harness includes leather covered front padding, nylon covered rear padding and leather comfort crown pad. RBR Helmets are fully adjustable in the circumference as well as the wearing height; therefore, two sizes can be adjusted to fit all heads. The basic set wieghts 2.8lbs - 3.3lbs
Helmets are tested versus penetration and back face deformation of Level IIIA 9mm and .44 Magnum ammunition as well as Level III 7,62FMJ and .306 ammunition. This test requires that one of each of the above rounds must impact directly on a suspension system fastener resulting in zero penetration. The entire line of helmets from RBR Tactical, have been further tested to MIL_STD 662E for fragmentation performance. All of the RBR Helmets maintain V-50 performance at over 2100 feet per second, surpassing the Mil Spec of 2000 feet per second. RBR Test Results are available upon request.
That all said, if you take a high velocity hit on head in this helmet, you might not get shot head off, but the impact will still greatly damage your spine cause of the force, hehe.
Though I doubt it makes too much sense to most people.
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| theshadow |
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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Location: US, PA
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I'll first point out I said 'modern' as in our modern... That was a pure list modern gear, that theoretically should be available and even relatively common. Often unless 'antiqued' (in a sense of no tooling being available to make them) all our general use gear in Midian is cheap 'ancient' 50 year old tech or there abouts from the outside worlds point of view. How many Midianites (reasonably) field non-chemical weapons of modern types (AK's, MP5's, DE's, M107's even)? So most reasonably, what armor we are wearing against them should be the types used against that class of weapon.
Not that I expect or even want everyone to agree with me, but I think it's reasonable to see these as being fairly easy to come by and people shouldn't have to many issues saying "I wear Advanced Body Armor, so I can take a couple rifle rounds without bleeding to death. Let's just hope I don't break a rib...".
Btw Charles the trend is actually in Making highly protective armor that does not weigh allot or inhibit movement. Read: Advanced Body Armor, below to see what I mean, it's lighter than previous bullet-proof vests while protecting better against rifle and high caliber rounds. If you'd like me to dig into the 'projects in the works now' bag, I'll find you better examples even.
There is a reason for this, as a content builder myself I'd like to introduce some prop weapons in Midian (things not much scripted past a stand animation and maybe a few particles, so they shouldn't cause any real lag btw). But I need a base to build up from... Like I've seen a few near-tech designs for incapacitating weapons, which should fit Midian fairly well (& will include a RP Notecard detailing pluses and minuses of use)... Maybe it would get more people to be creative... Heck I even had a idea for a Crygenic weapon instead of everyone using fire to take out the plants and building one out, but such an item would never be ready on time before like the last day of the event so it would be almost useless. |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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quote]Btw Charles the trend is actually in Making highly protective armor that does not weigh allot or inhibit movement. Read: Advanced Body Armor, below to see what I mean, it's lighter than previous bullet-proof vests while protecting better against rifle and high caliber rounds. If you'd like me to dig into the 'projects in the works now' bag, I'll find you better examples even.[/quote]
Ok coming from a long line of pen and paper roleplayers I have always been the type to say every Item of technology has downsides as well as upsides.
I don't care what the trend is in reality, for a roleplay enviroment there has to be a downside. Otherwise you have invincible characters that can be shot and move like ninjas and are gosh not only invinvcible at a distance but invincible in hand to hand combat.
whats the point of introducing a trend like that to a roleplay enviroment?
It's twinkish its saying "I can back up my claim and use reality trends and what not to make characters that are invincible" Which is well and good, but give me the name of the armour, make sure people wear a titler denoting they are wearing that type of armour so I can mute them and instead play with characters that have a better understanding of a roleplay system.
I mean technically I could say being the future they cracked the spider web code in order to make silk thin clothing that is indestructable and bullet proof and looks like normal every day clothing. As scientsts holy grail is to crack that to make light aircraft that can survive crashes etc and armour , spider silk strands that can be made on larger scale and keep their molecular density are the holy grail, so being the future why not?
cuz its moding is why. Even if it can be based on fact. Even if it is a technological plausability like nano tech. It needs to be refined and have weaknesses and limitations.
I think Jade and Indeed Cam would agree with that.
No technology or mutatant powers unless there is contained in that same technology or mutant power a counter.
I.E
Regeneration is fine, but it is not instantanous and cannot be used during the actual fight.
No super powers with out super weaknesses.
It's called ballance and exists in every "decent" roleplay system out there.
I think coming up with tech levels is missing the point entirely. Instead you should be coming up with fair trades.
Total protection at the expense of.............????????? total ineffectiveness for you to actually harm someone else?
So long as you look at midian as a real world rather than a roleplay enviroment you are going to pretty much piss off roleplayers.
Lets face facts, real life and midian are very, very,very,very,very different. Theres already a suspension of disbelief with some things that exist, because its a roleplay. Sure gritty realisim in terms of darkness and believablity, how ever super soilders bounding around unaffected by anything is not gritty, its boring.
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The above statements are opinions of the person behind the name "Charles Noble" these opinions may change over time, they may not agree with your opinon, that is the nature of opinions. Endevour to debate the "issue" not the "Person" |
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| theshadow |
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 03 Jul 2007
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Location: US, PA
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Charles, what part of 'I can be shot a couple of times with bruises or maybe a broken rib before my armor fails" become "I'm invincible beotch come fucking die!". Because that's where you just took this and why the heck did you do that? If you'd stop overreacting, maybe you could have a civil conversation with people.
What you said is like saying 'I put on plate mail to stop from getting gutted by swords.' is 'I'm invincible Beotch come fucking die!'. Armor is armor, I can make platemail out of titanium and it would be lighter then anything used up until WW1 (WW1 had uses of plate metal armor still for infantry) and it would even stop low caliber pistol rounds to.
All I said was that bulky armor isn't the way technology now (or even in the past), the trend has always been 'protect me from X and keep making it lighter to do so'. It was refuting the 'I'm only really armored if I wear hulking brute armor!' idea you toted out. The current world that exists is the one roleplaying games model for everything, It's not so hard to think of the down side to that armor you are making such a fuss over, in fact: Light so it can look like clothing more than armor but does little against blunt impacts, concussive forces, Fire, Cold, it's not hermetically sealed so toxins and gases still have an effect without other devices, etc do I need to go on? I doubt most people are going to see modern body armor as the uber be all and end all of armor that you seem to be so up in arms over. |
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| Charles Noble |
| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Joined: 18 Feb 2007
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| theshadow wrote: |
| Charles, what part of 'I can be shot a couple of times with bruises or maybe a broken rib before my armor fails". |
"I can be shot a couple of times whilst moving towards you unimpeeded where standard fists and melee weapons are going to be non effective against my armour."
Not saying YOU might take that approach, but if I can see that, then so can Moder x
Cuz this armour that can withstand a couple of bullet hits is virtually unassailable in hand to hand combat. Now armour that offers totatlly hand to hand combat invulnerability and dosn't impede movement pretty much means in order to stop you I need to oh
carry gas grenades, or some other item of tech, you are talking escalation. and this is going to happen, people are going to have to escalate their armoury just to wound you.
And no the modern world is not what all roleplay systems go on. Warhammer 40k is a perfect example of a ballanced armoury system..sacrafice speed for toughness, sacrafice power for speed, etc.
It's fine if you want to play the Escalation game, thats your progrative. Nothing wrong if you want to do that.
but don't be surprised when someone shoots you a couple of times you get broken ribs and pounce them , they cry foul when you are in hand to hand combat with them and they can't touch you. cuz armour that stops 50 cal rounds, no doubt stops hand to hand blows.
If you want to play that game, nothing stopping you doing that, I'll just wear my light medium armour if its all the same to you.
It's not going to do anything against powerful rifles, or hand guns at close range.
It does however offer protection from small arms fire at a range and slashes and obviously reduces the blunt impact from fists and such. ((reduces not stops)) and only covers my torso. yes its open to a lot of other things, but at least its open.
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The above statements are opinions of the person behind the name "Charles Noble" these opinions may change over time, they may not agree with your opinon, that is the nature of opinions. Endevour to debate the "issue" not the "Person"
Last edited by Charles Noble on Mon Mar 03, 2008 6:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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